I WAS A NARCISSIST * THE NARCISSISM AND DEPRESSION LINK #Chapter2 #40

Narcissism and depression often arise from hidden dynamics of control! In this powerful conversation, Jennifer Stirling-Campbell and Mike Campbell explore the emotional and psychological roots of narcissism and control, highlighting how these forces can silently shape our relationships, mental health, and personal freedom. They discuss the vital importance of personal agency, interdependence vs dependence, and the path toward healing and forgiveness of self and other. It also unpacks how narcissistic behaviors affect individuals and communities, how to recognize narcissistic patterns in ourselves and others, and how real freedom begins with self-awareness. Gain tools for navigating challenging relationships and insights into the spiritual and emotional toll of narcissistic dynamics—including their link to depression.

This episode of the Overcome Depression Podcast is for you if:

-You’re recovering from a relationship marked by control or emotional manipulation

-You want to understand the connection between narcissism and depression

-You struggle with giving away your power in relationships

-You're learning to set boundaries and heal from past trauma

-You’re ready to grow by recognizing narcissistic patterns within yourself

Sign up for my newsletter and get a free 20 minute one-on-one session with me!  https://dashboard.mailerlite.com/forms/767799/111363360441763363/share

Chapters

• 0:00 What Is Narcissism? Signs, Traits, and Root Causes
• 0:00 Understanding Control and Personal Agency in Mental Health
• 4:20 How Parenting Style Influences Control and Narcissistic Traits
• 6:42 Why Narcissistic Leaders Are So Alluring: Power and Perception
• 10:44 The Spiritual Side of Narcissism: Ego vs. Authenticity
• 14:37 How Society Controls Us: Freedom, Fear, and Influence
• 17:04 Relationships and Agency: How to Maintain Your Power
• 20:11 Embracing Imperfection: Healing from Shame and Narcissistic Wounds
• 26:30 Narcissism's Impact on Mental Health and Emotional Wellbeing
• 27:59 How to Navigate Relationships with Narcissistic People
• 29:03 Is Freedom an Illusion? Control, Choice, and Mental Clarity
• 29:30 Forgiveness and Boundaries: Reclaiming Emotional Freedom
• 31:46 Relationship Spectrum: From Codependence to Healthy Interdependence
• 34:26 The Power of Consent: Why “Opting In” Matters in Healing
• 35:57 onscious Parenting: Leading by Example Without Control
• 37:10 Finding Common Ground: Dealing with Difficult Neighbors or Family
• 38:14 The Joys and Challenges of Parenting for Personal Growth
• 41:43 Closing Thoughts on Narcissism, Control, and Emotional Healing

Transcript

0:15

People who are narcissistic aren't typically happy. They're only quote-unquote happy when they're controlling people around them and as soon as they can't control the people around them, fall apart. There's quite a few markers one of the things that their emotions drive them, they believe their emotions are their reality and everyone else's reality as well, even if other people don't feel the same. so dead set on keeping whatever reality they believe in safe from being confronted or challenged that they will manipulate in every way shape and form to protect that lie. You the lies that they either want so badly to believe or want you to believe so that they have control of you. When start to learn to recognize these, and I'm talking not just in a physical world where we interact with each other, but on a spiritual one, the thoughts that come into your head, the manipulation that goes on on a subconscious level, through dark forces that want to control your mind and want to use you, your body, your mind to control others. looking to yourself first, how am I doing that? Because when you can let go of the control and you can forgive others for controlling you and then make appropriate choices, that is where the joy will come from. Good evening.

Our child has just gone to bed and it is about 10: 1:33

30. Don't judge us. Mike and I are going to talk about a very important topic today. Narcissism and control. Basically that control is a toxic poison. And I want to go way, back to what my faith believes was the pre-existence when this guy named Satan basically petitioned God to let him be in charge to save all of mankind. his proposed plan was that he would force everyone to be good, make them do everything that they should do, and therefore would be no mistakes made and everyone would be able to get back home to heaven. relatively unscathed and that he would be the savior of the world in this way. And God rejected that offer to be the savior who honored God's plan, which was to give us all of this agency, which frankly, if you look at it, it does cause a lot of problems because when we're not perfect and we're making choices that affect other people and some people might say, That's horrible. It's not fair. God has clearly made a mistake, but I believe that agency was the most beautiful gift any of us could ever receive But since the fall when Satan was cast out of heaven and he rebelled and took a bunch of spirits with him who then became demons, they have been fighting that same battle ever since to take away our agency and force us into compliance with Satan now rather than God. And to take away that agency is the whole goal and to force us quote unquote to do things that we wouldn't do if we were in our right mind. I know that when I was under the influence of depression for those 25 years, I felt a sense of I couldn't control myself. I felt this sense of being controlled by something that I couldn't describe, but it was very overpowering, whether it was an anger episode or just the racing thoughts. it was very hard to live that way. And now that I've overcome depression, I feel so free. It's not that I never fall into making mistakes or verge on the side of control. Because I think we all have narcissism in us to some degree. And it's mitigating that and saying, no, no, I'm not going to cater to all wants, needs and desires. What would you say, Mike, is narcissism? I have my own definition. It's pretty simple. kind of feel like We all have narcissistic traits where we want to control people around us or certain outcomes and being aware of that is important to be not be afraid of somebody succeeding better you. I that can apply to our kids. Yeah, especially the kids. There's a tendency to try to keep them into a control grasp of some kind where they are always within our grasp or lower. Subservient. Yeah. I think even as an adult, parents want their adult children to continue to listen to everything they say and do what they're told and train them from a young age to do that. I don't think it works very well in most cases. They end up being taught to follow mom and dad and do whatever they say no matter what. Then they get to be teenagers and they decide they're not gonna listen to mom and dad anymore and they start listening to who, the media they consume and their peers. And then they grow up and they start maybe listening to a spouse. to a toxic level and possibly a boss. And they don't actually learn how to assert themselves or actually listen to God, because that's what I want my kids to do, is to stop listening to me or to come to me when they feel like something I'm saying is not a good direction for them or even if I think it's a good idea, if they come to me with the ideas they think that they're being inspired to make, even if it's I need to go to my friend's house right now. Well, you haven't done your chores, but I'm really feeling like I need to go to my friends right now. That could seem like a, honey, you need to do your chores first. But maybe their intuition is telling them that their friend needs them right now. And if you're not in tune with that, you could be teaching your children not to listen to their intuition or that their intuition is foolish or that your authority always overrides their intuition. a couple of things that came to mind some of the historically speaking kings and rulers.... Their tendencies to lead. There is a natural, propensity for people to want to listen a narcissist. To, because it seems like they're very well put together. they use words in a efficient, very educated way. Yeah. Most of the time they're pretty smart. people will listen obey. But if that narcissist is ever challenged, melt or fall apart or- Or try to kill Yeah. and it does kind of correlate with some of the historical kings that. If you disagree, you're dead. communism, in a lot of cases, you disagree, you're imprisoned, you're killed, or you're ridiculed, you're put in a place of so much fear that you don't dare go against the rules because the society itself will punish you. And I see that a lot in the United States. fascinating to watch where you get so much societal punishment for going against what we're being told we should be believing people are afraid to speak out or say, I don't necessarily agree with that. When we live in a free country, yes, but it makes it really difficult when your job's on the line or your reputation so forth. it's easy to follow too. It's easy to follow a narcissist. It just is. It's an easier path because they're- creating this certain reality that it's like, don't need to worry about it. Like you don't have to think. You can let them do the decision making and the thinking for you. think that's why some people balk a little bit at being more free. I'm all about it. I have an insurance that allows me to... pick and choose who I want to go to. There's no set list of doctors. Christian healthcare ministries. I love it. I chose the quite high deductible because I don't use it very often, but it allows me the freedom to make my own choices. Whereas some people feel a lot more comfortable, a lot more safe being confined in a space where they're limited to the choices they can make so that they don't have to be responsible for making ones outside of the few that they have, if that makes sense. I want to give my definition of narcissism, because it's very simple. I think that it breaks down to two major things. And there's some fabulous resources online. I would highly recommend Michelle Nieves. Surviving to Thriving is her YouTube channel. She delivers the information in such an, I wouldn't say upbeat, because that's not quite capturing it, but optimistic, hopeful way that educates you about how narcissism works without it seeming quite so dark and dismal and hateful towards people who struggle with it. And again, I think we all struggle with it on some level, some more than others. But narcissism, and I studied it for a good year as a part-time job because I was trying to understand someone in my life who was demonstrating very narcissistic traits and I didn't know how to handle it. It was very helpful. But two things are, 1. You will worship me and 2. I will control you. one and two. You will worship me. I will control you. That is Satan's plan embodied in a human being. And I think that he uses us. First of all, trying to control everything me miserable. Whenever I get into, want to control this thing especially when I was depressed and I wanted to control the entire planet: just Everybody change so I don't have to not a happy place to be. It feels very heavy. There's nothing light about it, when we honor choices of others, even when we don't agree with them, even if it affects us some ways. There's obvious boundaries where we have control of our space, of our bodies, of our homes, our properties, our children until they've left home. But outside of that, it really isn't our place to be trying to control the planet or control others around us or control our neighbors. Yes, we can try to do things that will or inspire, but outside that it just becomes controlling and oh my goodness. Hi. We got a little out of bed fellow. Hi. Arastus, you need to go to bed. you're so loud. Say hi, buddy. Say hi. Hi. to you. Welcome to our program. We've waited all day to do this because Just to be asleep. Can you say bye? Good night. Yeah, hopefully. But I would say that one of the major essences or foundational principles of depression is one, absolutely try to control yourself and others at all times and it totally backfires. It just makes you more depressed. and the world around you, and God, tell him how he should be. When you were talking adversary narcissism. There's some good examples in the Bible around when Moses, after he conversed with Lord, He was confronted by Lucifer and in that exchange he demanded Moses "worship me" and Moses refused to do so. he basically threw a fit right there. a coming apart of sorts. it's an identification of a spirit, what that looks like. Like a spirit of narcissism that we allow if we give up our free agency, essentially. who And some people say narcissists cannot change. If you believe that you don't believe in the atonement or that God is a God of miracles because while it's Uncommon for narcissists to see clearly enough to be able to change because they're so wrapped up in their world It can be very emotionally charged place where they really believe their own lies but I do believe there's hope for people who struggle with narcissistic tendencies. I I've seen it happen. I've seen it in myself I used to be much more narcissistic. So I think it's absolutely possible to heal. It's an innate carnal nature The spirit of narcissism has qualities, that sometimes inflicts and torments us? Yeah, yeah, it does. I don't think anybody can escape, but I think it's easier for some people to be, a little bit more self-aware than others but it's really hard to look at those things too within yourself because uh of ugly. Yeah. Well, when you're a narcissist, there's certain power that... when you get people validate you what you're doing, then somebody challenges that validation with a truth or simple logic. all costs, they have to defend it. And that's where the meltdown happens. They have to protect this self-created reality that... Based on probably some truth, but... it's been validated by that have subscribed to that narcissism in their world. they've fed off of and had success that. And people that challenge them usually become enemies and they, stop talking to you. Really? I think the people who are on that spectrum. can't just disagree with you or not be friends anymore. I've seen it many times where they are out to destroy your reputation, your identity. If they could put you in jail, oh, they would. Like, they just hate you. I mean, You see it online a lot with the way that people treat each other. respectful dialogue is... so valuable whenever I confront someone's belief system online and challenge it. I always express gratitude if that person responds honestly but respectfully, even if I don't agree what they're saying. Because I feel like it's more and more rare these days. I think that it really started in grade school with how we've been taught to get along and stop fighting. And I think it's a mistake that we've been taught this since we were little kids. I get it that it's the easy thing and we don't want bullies and so forth. However, we have been taught that it's not okay to disagree and that we have to keep our feelings inside. We were not encouraged to express, differing opinions in a space where we could be taught and mentored. that would- emotions? Yeah, in a school environment where you could debate things in a way that, of course, when you're practicing that, kids and even adults may say things that hurt each other's feelings. And that can, to some people, feel like, that's not a safe environment, but how can we be more resilient? How can we learn how to say things more respectfully if we're not even given the practice in an environment with a mentor who can help us do that? I think- That's a very valuable skill that I would say, I don't know, 90% of the population, maybe that that's just my opinion, lacks. They just don't know how to do it because they were told to just be quiet, get along, don't fight. I think it was a mistake. We have to honor the choices of other people. We have to respect, even if we don't agree with the I honor you. I honor where you are right now, but when the next opportunity comes, will you honor and respect the choices of others? Or will you try to force your opinions, force your way of life, force your way of being, encourage politicians to enforce laws that will force people to do what you think they should do? This is all wrong. You take any good thing, Even if it's true 100% and you force it, you make it compulsory, it then becomes evil. Across the board. Hitler had so many good ideas and you read some of his stuff, it's like, wow, these really good ideas. They seem very sound, but as soon as you force them upon people, it's no longer good. I agree. No matter how well intentioned they are. And I, like to push my health upon Mike sometimes and he really resents that. Please, please eat better. Please eat these. Please drink this green drink. And he's like, gross, get that away from me. Please. don't mind. I don't mind some of your drinks. but you're at with your health and where I am, I'm working on it. Let me just put it that way. But I know that I could be a better wife by inviting and loving and encouraging rather than shaming and trying to implement agendas or making you a meal plan and saying, here, this is what you need That doesn't make you want to change. I've noticed. And that's the thing. Change has to come from the individual. got to give people the room to make those decisions, you know, and outside of civil unrest or people assaulting other people or destroying property, basic laws that protect us and should be enforced proper boundaries, of course. Yeah, proper boundaries. But people need to be able to make their decisions, be able to choose what they want in their life. Even if it affects me, even if, down the road we get medical bills because there's so many choices people make that affect other people. we're gonna encounter burden wherever we go. And do agree that can be responsible for our own health, I choose poorly in my life, then it becomes incumbent upon somebody else to take care of me. So how do you navigate that? Or secondhand smoke. You know, if you have a spouse who smokes and I think what it really breaks down to is you have the agency to choose who you're with, choose who you work for. And you may say, no, I don't. But we all do. We all do. We can make changes if we choose to do so, if we choose to stay, we are choosing to help lift the burdens of the imperfect people around us who are maybe creating some problems of their own. We do the same thing. And so you have to weigh, is this person or this job worth it to me? Do I need to stay? Do I need to go? think turning of course to God's will and aligning with that, you know, you know what the thing is. It can be hard to watch the people we love make choices that We wouldn't make ourselves or we've made in the past and we don't want them to make again. But it's all about agency and it's all about that respect and honoring their path and loving them through it. were all in this together. if you're a child living at home, you maybe don't have quite as much of a freedom to leave your home at that point, but someday you will, and you're still in charge of your mind. No matter how good or poorly you're parented, if you had a parent who yelled at you all the time, you still have the ability to process, and reject the lies you're being told. It's not easy in an environment like that, but the agency is real. We have more than we think. Satan does not want us to know just how much freedom we have. choice over our minds, the choice over our bodies, the where we go, whether we stay or leave a certain situation or relationship. big part of that is gratitude and forgiveness. embody what that is. If you've got a loved one that kind of knowingly chose unhealthy path in life and is now suffering the consequences and now it's affecting you because you have to take care of them, is there going to be a resentment there that you have for them? Or- You chose to stay. You chose to stay, right? what do we do to take care of them? how do we take care of them and how do we love them? And overcome those challenges. Imagine carrying resentment this is a burden to me. I have to take care of you now. There's so many things I wanted to do in life and So there's a certain part of expectations that you put out there Which can be pretty rigid. You look at societal expectations. I'm going to get a job. I'm going to have a pension. I'm going to retire at this age and then it's going and then we're going to travel. Yeah. You have this plan. Yeah. You're like, man, I wanted to go on a vacation. I wanted to, go see Europe or something, and it's like, no medical bills. No. Yeah, exactly. the gratitude? the forgiveness? How do we seeing them as a child that's learning, because we all have things that we're children at. And being that, wow, this is hard, but dang it, I love you. We're going to get through this. I saw this coming, but I love you so much. I'm not gonna let you go. I'm not gonna let you go. there's value and beauty to sticking with imperfect people and watching them grow and being not just content, but alive in the adventure. Well, we're all imperfect. We're all imperfect. Being with imperfect people, Grace, my gosh, Grace has saved my life. I've had some opportunities to be pretty frustrated with a particular neighbor. Mike knows who this neighbor is, he gets pretty frustrated with his neighbor too. But just looking at them like this is a beautiful soul that has some childish qualities that they're growing from and I'm gonna just love all over them and let them know that I still... like them, still love them even when I don't like some of their choices. We can burn bridges so badly that people just want to see you crash and burn, rather than when they see you giving them grace. Within boundaries, of course, like that's not okay. Don't please don't say that to me. You know, it depends on the situation, but to just be reassuring people that I still care about you. reassure people that even though maybe you don't like what they do, that you like them. And that opens up that space where they can offer that help because if People feel that you care. It's hard not to like you. I think people stop caring when they feel like you don't care about them. And I felt that way about teachers. It was really hard for me to feel motivated to work hard in a class. I'd do the minimum work if I didn't feel like a teacher cared. A teacher has domain over their classroom, right? And I've had my children come to me before complaining about their teacher, how the teacher doesn't grade fair, or they're really boring or whatever. And they wanted me to go talk to the teacher and make the teacher change their mind. in most cases, I would sit my child down and say, you know what? Your teacher has certain standards. They have likes and dislikes. Of course they have biases, but you're going to have to figure out what those are and live by their rules in their class if you want to succeed. because that's their domain. They control your grade. End of story. You can't make the teacher change. that's, If you expand that into all of life's situations, I think you can figure out where the boundaries are when you realize who's in control here. Really? Am I? If it's possible, maybe you change classrooms, maybe you change teachers, maybe you take the class again. But if you can't, either you drop out of college or you I guess you do have that choice. You got to obey their rules at that time and then move on. Right. Even people you work for can be that way. Spouses can be that way. Yeah. It's a battle when your spouse is controlling every aspect of your life and you feel so restricted or you're walking on... Are you about me? look I'm not talking about you. Don't look at me that way. I'm not talking about you. No, grateful right now I've got the freedom where I'm not working for anybody under a W-2 but that when I was I learned a lot even though I didn't agree with my boss and he used me to look good, And took the credit, right? And took the credit, absolutely. I knew if I was steadfast because finding another job in the moment wasn't practical for me because it was paying for hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical bills For someone who was maybe making not the best life choices. Right. You've seen all. I don't want to judge either But going through the life experience like that where, you're stuck with boss that's hardly respectable He degrades you every day you're there. You can stand up for yourself but an element of persevering. And the interesting part of that is people see your integrity in those moments. There were, corporate individuals who saw my integrity in those moments and didn't happen that year but the following years there were opportunities that opened up to me because people eventually saw the work I was doing. They created another position put me in it. then you were free. mean, I was free from the boss that I had. but there was also a lot of respect that was given because they recognized what kind of a man that he was after the fact. but in the end it worked out a lot greater for my career and, my pocketbook you're able to honor where he was at and not let it get you down too much. Exactly. think, I think that is a big part. You are in control of your own ship. There might be some choppy seas out there, but, You gotta navigate it. Yeah, how you move through those tackle those obstacles it's led to who I am today, but it's also helped me see narcissistic people. Oh I want to clarify something I said before, when you were promoted and you were no longer under the boss, I said, you're free now. And I want to emphasize that you were free the whole time. You're free the whole time. You're a free agent. You could have made a different choice. But you chose to stick it out. And so I just wanted to emphasize that in most cases, excluding those that involve major life prison, Holocaust camps, even they had control over their thoughts and books I've read about the Holocaust, talk about how even when they lost all of their freedom in every other respect, they still had control over how they handled it, their thoughts, their own minds, that the Nazis could not, they tried, but they could not ultimately control their thoughts. And that gave them a sense of power. Yeah. The part that was... the most liberating for me in the end, working for someone who was narcissistic, you say that the narcissism was designed to control you? Was the narcissism in both of these cases designed to control you take away your choice? Like did they want you to make it feel like you didn't have a choice? Yeah, it was, become subservient, but there was a part of me that I always knew better. I just learned to not say anything in the moment. And I think in your case, that might've been more wisdom than suggestions for how to handle a relationship because in a decent and healthy relationship you need to be vocalizing the way you feel even if it might upset the person and so forth because that's you need to be communicating so we're not encouraging that at all. I agree and it was but understanding when someone is just not going to care about what you have to say and not wasting your breath or your energy on someone who's demonstrated that they really don't care about you. And that they're gonna hurt you or take your words and... To wrap up that whole experience. I can spot somebody who has strong narcissistic traits because I know what that looks like now. The big takeaway I can navigate in my own life, to avoid those things too. Like is what I don't want to become. I want to be self-aware to not become a narcissist, but also not... keep someone who is embodying those traits. very close. it's helped me with boundaries and it helped me shape my future. after I got divorced. Working with people who have strong narcissistic traits. think you're gonna bump into that regardless of- anywhere you go. And like you said, you have to have respect for the teacher in their domain. You have to have respect for your boss in their domain. If you're working a W2 employee, you're there to do a job. And, if your boss wants it done a certain way, and it doesn't make sense to you still do it. Even if you disagree, it doesn't matter. You're in his domain, you're perform the work. You've got own agency and choice. You've got the choice not to work there's gotta be a means to an end. If you can see the goal, light at the end of the tunnel, then you can endure with somebody to kind of move you onto that next phase See it for what it is recognize the signs. don't internalize it and shoot because a lot of times people who've been bullied end up becoming the bully and so you have to look at some of these people and wonder where did this come from? happened to them that made them feel like in order to protect or assert themselves in a way that they'll be safe from being bullied made them think that this is how they had to do it. Most people don't act that way unless there was some serious pain involved. Not that we should put up with it or stay in those situations if we don't have to, but to have compassion. These are people in pain and we can respect where they are and move somewhere else if at all possible. Right. but still, even to endure an uncomfortable moment is... would say greatly beneficial because you can take notes. Make it a study, like a psychological, this is really interesting how they're acting, this is crazy. and I'm saying right now, I'm grateful. I'm grateful for my experiences that I've had with these people, that I've gotten to work with or married to one. Likewise. It shaped my future can things that really truly matter have a lot more joy in my life as well. People who are narcissistic aren't typically happy. They're only quote-unquote happy when they're controlling people around them and as soon as they can't control the people around them, fall apart. There's quite a few markers one of the things that their emotions drive them, they believe their emotions are their reality and everyone else's reality as well, even if other people don't feel the same. so dead set on keeping whatever reality they believe in safe from being confronted or challenged that they will manipulate in every way shape and form to protect that lie. You the lies that they either want so badly to believe or want you to believe so that they have control of you. When start to learn to recognize these, and I'm talking not just in a physical world where we interact with each other, but on a spiritual one, the thoughts that come into your head, the manipulation that goes on on a subconscious level, through dark forces that want to control your mind and want to use you, your body, your mind to control others. looking to yourself first, how am I doing that? Because when you can let go of the control and you can forgive others for controlling you and then make appropriate choices, that is where the joy will come from. When you are free of the burden of controlling other people and free of the burden of being controlled. It's forgiveness. It's forgiveness. Forgive yourself, forgive others. Let it go. It's heavy. It is heavy trying to carry everybody else around in a way that's not helpful. You will do what I say. You will do what I think. You will validate my feelings. It's not, it's just not. People could validate you all day. One person disagrees with you and The whole world would have to bow down and cater to your whims in order for you to be happy. And believe me, I've been there. It's one of the foundational principles that will keep you in mental health prison and keep you depressed. So I just wanted to say that as well as talk about three different kinds of relationships. And I talk about Benjamin Hardy quite a bit. I refer to him a lot because he has such good stuff, but Your yoga ball's so loud. It's a nice seat though yeah, it's nice and comfy. so there's dependence or being a follower, being dependent on government, your children, parents, other people, spouse, which isn't necessarily bad in every situation. Sometimes we need to depend on others. However, chronic dependence means we don't want to make any decisions where we've been told what to do, not freedom. Then there's independence, which is more isolated, where we're making our own progress and taking independent action, all the credit for yourself. It's one of the most celebrated things in the United States, was this independence, yay, freedom, like I'm kind of right there, right? I verge on that extreme. But interdependence, which is finding people with common core values and goals who have different perspectives. They are way different from you. They have different strengths, different weaknesses. They see the world different and you share these with each other in respectful dialogue. And willing to work with you as a team. So unselfishly all giving, all benefiting and growing. This would be the apex of the church's, it's not conservation, what is it, consecration. would be like the law of consecration, but in any setting. It could be work, it could be your home, it could be, and we're not talking about socialism where it's forced because remember as soon as something is forced upon a population, it becomes evil. opt in. voluntary. You're opting in. And that is where the freedom comes and you can opt out. If I'm not feeling like this team is really working. You can opt out, but finding like-minded people again, with, similar values and goals, like you, want to get to the same place, but maybe your way of thinking or your ideas for getting there are very different. And it allows you to figure out where your blind spots are, where their blind spots are, and being willing to try to understand where everybody's coming from. And I heard a quote recently, was, there was no credit given for where this quote came from, but that you could go really fast somewhere by yourself, independently, zoom, you know, get there, you make all the decisions, you call the shots, you do the thing, but you can go really far together. And I think, again, I tend to verge on the independence train and I'm trying to get more into a collaborative mindset where Yes, can make all my own choices and have all the control if I do it myself. But when you do it with others, again, with like values and like goals, there's a sense of joy and purpose that is very driving. I, can't look at any business out there that's really successful. That's run by one person. it doesn't really happen. I suppose maybe there's examples of, really successful people, but most of them have teams. So again, opt in the most important concept what we're talking about today. gotta be opt in, but stop trying to forcefully opt people in on your train if they're not ready or willing to do it. whether it's a spouse, a child, they have their own wills, they have their own paths, you've got to respect it, even if you see them self-imploding or self-destructing. You can look at God's laws and how they operate. If we want people around us to adopt kindness, we have to operate by those same laws and not implement those laws, but live by those laws. And I would say that most communist dictators broke all the rules they made. Like it applied to everyone else. Absolutely. There isn't, there isn't a single leader, any... person that's ever lived history hasn't been a hypocrite. And again, to myself, I'm encouraging to look at yourself. How do you do this? It's making you miserable. Whatever area that is. How do you expect other people to do things that you're not able or willing to do yourself? And I think a lot of times I think, well, yes, I am. Are you really? know is a silly one, my sons feel a lot of frustration over phone rules. And we insisted that they don't be in the bedrooms with their phones. I agree with it. But Mike didn't necessarily feel that he should have to not be in the bedroom with his phone. And I said, that's not how it works. They're not going to respect your rule if you can't respect the rule too, that's any teen, cross the board. obey your own rules that you make or you lose respect. And they don't wanna obey your rule, because you're not even willing to obey it. I agree, A new dad here. I mean, he's amazing. The fact that he cares enough to make phone rules; that's a positive thing. It's hard because learned how to navigate certain things and we expect others like our children to live their life in a stricter form. Yeah, well, when I use my phone, I'm actually doing something work related, communicating with someone, making a plan. But regardless, you can do that outside the bedroom. And the only reason I have my phone in the bedroom is because the bedroom is our podcasting room and I need it to film the podcast. So that's the purpose of it in the room. But if I'm using it, don't use it in the bedroom. And when we make the rule, we got to understand that, it's got to be the same for them too. the point is it doesn't matter what the phone is being used for. If you make the rule, you have to abide by your own rule. you tell the kids, well, it's for work, then you can go in your bedroom, just like when it's for work, I can go in my bedroom, which is kind of a slippery slope, like how do you monitor that? I've done the same thing. I've caught myself saying, you can't do that. Don't pee on the floor for the toddler. I don't pee on the floor either. Yeah. please don't pee in the sandbox. I don't pee in the sandbox. Don't hit the dog. I don't do that. Oh, shoot. Have I ever kicked the dog? Maybe, but not okay to kick the dog. here's a good one. Don't talk to me that way. How many times do you do that as parents? You don't talk to me that way, but how are we talking to our kids? And then they talk to us back that way and we're like, you don't talk to me that way, I'm the parent. But we're talking to them that way. kind of negates the respect thing. it goes both ways. We have mentor and positive discipline, but when we try to control our kids, don't think it goes well. serves the same laws and the same principles in society our leaders around the world. They lots for thee, but not for me. if you don't want your kids watching certain shows then don't watch those kinds of shows either. is a parent. You try to create all these buffers. I think sometimes we think we're above the buffer because we know, we understand, so we don't have to follow the buffer, but that's, it's just not accurate. Which ties back to God's laws and how they work. He obeys his own laws. He does. Well, absolutely. But that's the point. The laws we follow this once we learn, how these laws operate, then we become, good parents. Yeah, and good people, like good mentors, kinder neighbors, better friends, better daughters, sisters, brothers. You have a lot more joy in your life when you go expectations and trying to control people when you're like, so angry at so and so because. They're so stupid. whatever it might be, their landscape looks ugly and, you want to control them. Move into an HOA. That's a choice. The HOA can control your neighbors. Yeah. Yeah, but we don't, That's just it. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about got this weird perception of cookie cutter society and the way things should be. It's like, if so-and-so doesn't cut their grass, I'm going to melt down. the weeds will spread to my yard, you just live in a space of like, don't even see those weeds. the way to get your neighbor to change first you got to find forgiveness them, for yourself. Find out how they tick. Then become their friend serve them and And find out what they like. Like I had a friend who's a member of my church, we don't drink, he realized that his new neighbors liked beer. And so he went to the store and he bought them beer took beer over to their house and welcomed them to the neighborhood, even though he would never drink it himself. But that was kind of a peace offering. They knew he was a member of the LDS church that he didn't drink. And they're like, wow, he brings us beer? Like you're our new friend. Yeah. I would probably go with something a little bit more common, like cookies. Yeah. they really appreciated it. That was where they were at. he said the energy completely changed. was unusual and I thought kind of cool. So with that said, very appreciative of Mike for doing this for me. It's now like 1130 at night and he's such a trooper. I know he has to work in the morning.

I don't, I will have a toddler waking me up around 6: 40:37

30. So I think we'd better Your job is far harder than mine. it's just different. Being a mother used to be the hardest job in the world. And I think that a a lot of mothers are in that place because a lot of women in this country have mental health struggles and physical issues and health problems that make it very hard to be a parent all day long and am with you. I have been there. I love being a mom now because I have energy, because I'm much happier. I enjoy life I think more than the average person does. It makes being a mom so much fun. There have been weeks our little sweet Erastus has not been so sweet. Phases do happen And those have not been weeks where I look forward to getting out of bed and dealing with that all day. But the most part, he's so much fun. He's so much fun. He's so much fun. And I'm looking forward to giving him a sibling But I'm excited again to have Mike here with me. We'll have more John and other guests coming on soon, And with that, and this is the Overcome Depression podcast, I'm Jennifer. I'm Mike. We'll see you next time.