5: Natural Childbirth: Curse or Cure for Postpartum Depression?

In this episode of the Overcome Depression Podcast, host Jennifer Stirling-Campbell explores the deep connection between natural childbirth, medical interventions, and long-term mental health. Drawing from personal experience, research, and faith-based reflection, Jennifer shares why the way we are born may shape bonding, emotional health, and even postpartum depression and anxiety.

After overcoming depression permanently following 25 years of struggle, Jennifer discusses how interfering with natural biological processes—especially during birth—created lasting imbalances for both herself and her babies. She breaks down controversial medical interventions such as inductions, Pitocin, epidurals, C-sections, fetal monitoring, episiotomies, ultrasounds, and pain medications, explaining the potential physical, emotional, and neurological impacts of each.

This episode is not about judgment—but about education, accountability, and informed choice.

Subscribe to the Overcome Depression Podcast for hope-filled conversations on healing, mental health, faith, and living well—naturally and intentionally.

This episode is for you if you want to learn:

• The roles oxytocin and endorphins play in labor and how they affect bonding between mother and baby. 
• Why inductions and synthetic hormones might affect breastfeeding,  postpartum depression, and bonding between mother and baby. 
• The differences between hospital births, home births, and birthing centers
• Why midwife-led care often emphasizes fewer interventions
• The risks and benefits of natural vs. elective C-sections
• The pros and cons of delayed cord clamping, vitamin K injections, and informed consent
• Why education empowers mothers to make confident, regret-free birth decisions

Get Your FREE Prenatal Care .pdf Download: https://imaquarius.com/natural-childbirth-curse-or-cure-for-postpartum-depression-solo-5/

Cesarean Section Study: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s12884-016-0869-0

Chapters

• 0:00 Overcome Depression: Mental Health, Birth, and Healing Foundations
• 0:54 Natural Childbirth and Mental Health: Reducing Postpartum Depression Risk
• 3:13 Labor Inductions, Medical Convenience, and Mental Health Consequences
• 5:34 Pitocin, Oxytocin, and Postpartum Depression: What Mothers Should Know
• 9:44 Endorphins, Natural Labor, and Emotional Regulation After Birth
• 11:30 Fetal Monitoring, Labor Interventions, and Long-Term Mental Health
• 15:51 Birth Trauma, Surgical Interventions, and Postpartum Mental Health
• 19:33 Cesarean Sections and Postpartum Depression: Hidden Emotional Risks
• 21:31 Labor Pain Relief, Epidurals, and Mental Health Outcomes
• 26:07 Bonding, Breastfeeding, and Preventing Postpartum Depression
• 31:56 Overcome Depression: Empowered Birth Choices and Mental Health Healing

Transcript

0:00

Welcome to the Overcome Depression podcast. I'm your host, Jennifer Stirling Campbell, and here we talk about healing and hope for overcoming depression, not just in a casual way, but actually permanently. And why do I say this? Why do I say this is possible? Because I did it. After 25 years of suffering, I truly overcame depression, stopped taking the medication I was on, and never looked back. One of the things that I have realized and one of the first things I've learned on this journey was that when we interfere with nature, it tends to create imbalances. And sometimes we do so in the name of preserving life or being safe. And in some cases, I think interventions are warranted, but still, require prayerful consideration. And one of the things that I want to talk about, and I've already talked about recently about birth and what happens to us on the first day we are born and how that can impact our minds and mental health. Today, I'm going to be talking about natural childbirth and why it deserves a consideration. I know that a lot of people think it's kind of hooey or why would I want to go through all that pain when I can just get an epidural? Medical doctors and midwives seem to be at odds and it seems to be this polarizing thing when I think we should be able to work together. Doctors can come in when it's necessary and midwives can come and do their jobs without eyes rolling in the other direction. And interestingly enough, I found out through my research, which I did quite a lot of before I gave birth to my son three and a half years ago, that people in Norway almost exclusively have babies at home, paid for by the government and delivered by midwives. They seem to think it's safe and effective and cost effective as well. And so as I did my research about all of these different interventions and the pros and the cons, I was amazed at some of the things that I found out that I didn't know that I want to share with you today. Again, just as a consideration to go back to the way nature intended. There's a reason, and it's not just punishment for Eve for eating the fruit of the tree that you have to go through this pain. No, there are reasons for natural childbirth being the way that it is. So, some things to consider. I'm going talk first about inductions. Why people induce? Because I think a lot of doctors, want the convenience of knowing when the baby is coming. They don't want to be working at night as well as mothers are getting anxious. They want that baby out. They want to meet them and they're tired of being pregnant. However, I firmly believe that baby knows when it wants to come and interfering with that process can have consequences. I'm really grateful that my mom had a natural childbirth and that I was not induced in any way. But when a mother's baby carries an extra large baby, because some mothers are really worried about this, what if I give birth to a really huge baby and I can't get him out? Well, my first baby was born three weeks early and he was nine pounds one. He was pretty large and I got him out. Even with the epidural, I was able to get him out. It was, it was iffy because of the epidural, But when you have an extra large baby, the body produces extra chemicals that further loosen the mother's tendons, muscles, and joints in preparation for that extra large birth. And circumventing this process through inducing the baby before the mother's body is fully prepared for labor of that large baby can actually cause more complications than help. It may also be helpful to know that babies can signal to the mother when they are ready to be born. So during late pregnancy, the uterus has an increased number of immune cells called macrophages, which help fight lung infection. And approaching the end of pregnancy, a specific protein that's produced by the developing baby activates these macrophages. And so in the last weeks of pregnancy, the baby creates increasing amounts of protein until the baby's lungs are mature enough to breathe outside of the uterus. And then once enough of these macrophages are present, the baby's lungs are ready, a chemical reaction then takes place, stimulating an inflammatory response in the uterus that begins the process of labor. If induction is a usual practice, which it is in some countries, due to convenience or habitual reliance or estimated due dates, which can be wrong, by the way, it is wise to refuse the temptation which could end up with disappointment and additional complications. For example, study found that cesarean rates more than doubled with induction. So something to think about. Some of these inducing treatments, and going to go through all of them and the of the pros and the cons, are a membrane sweep to start with. What is that? It might sound like a natural option. But anything that starts labor before it begins on its own is interfering with that natural process. So even sweeping the membranes is essentially stimulating your body to release the chemical. not even sure what it's called. can't even pronounce it. But it acts on the surface to soften, which then encourages dilation. often this stage is already happening behind the scenes and would be better if you just left it alone. It's generally not too invasive. but there's a small increased risk of the water's rupturing prematurely and if it leaks out and contractions don't start within a certain time frame, there's an increased risk of infection. But more alarming is when that sac is broken and the baby's head is not low enough in the pelvis to avoid cord prolapse, which is when the cord flows out past the baby's head and then you have a medical emergency which often necessitates a c-section. um There's a Foley's bulb induction which is again generally not too invasive where a balloon catheter is put inside of your cervix or vagina and then pressure is administered the same way baby's head would be and this little small rubber tube is placed just inside that inner edge and inflated to around four centimeters. Once induction has begun, however, if the baby is really not ready to be born, but you're trying to force it the situation becomes high risk because you're dilated four centimeters now and you're committing to doing whatever is necessary to get the baby out at that point, which often can result in a C-section. Pitocin. my first baby, I went to the hospital and my contractions were five minutes, five minutes, five minutes apart for over an hour. Hospitals, they only have so many rooms. They only have so many staff. They want minimize how long you're in there. So they gave me Pitocin to speed up the process. What I didn't know is that Pitocin, unlike oxytocin, makes extremely painful contractions, which oxytocin, they're painful as well, but pitocin is a whole new level and it's synthetic. So although it's chemically identical to oxytocin, pitocin behaves very differently because it doesn't cross the mother's blood-brain barrier and therefore cannot act on the maternal brain. Oxytocin, on the other hand, is involved in falling in love, bonding, relationships, There's evidence to support that inductions can interfere with the bonding behaviors between mothers and newborns and can also be linked to postpartum depression and anxiety because it's not oxytocin that's causing the contractions as much anymore. And without the oxytocin release in the brain because the pitocin is doing it, endorphin production is decreased, lowering the body's ability to benefit from its own natural painkillers. So in my case, I thought Well, if I can, I'll have a natural childbirth. When they gave me the pitocin, it was like, never mind, nada. If you're given pitocin in a hospital, it's very, very, very unlikely that you're going to be able to withstand the amount of pain that it's going to cause. You're going to want that epidural. Breastfeeding, which is affected by the stress of the baby and the mother more than any other factor. Okay, I'm going to read that again. Breastfeeding, it's by the stress of the baby and the mother more than anything else. Okay, that should tell you something. We have a lot of mothers struggling to breastfeed these days. Loss of natural oxytocin because of pitocin being administered means less feel-good hormones, which help counter the stress of labor and birth in a natural birth. Some studies show that women who receive artificial oxytocin or pitocin in labor are three times less likely to initiate breastfeeding in the first four hours after birth, twice as likely to give formula to their baby in the hospital, and less likely to breastfeed after two months. So that's kind of a big deal to me because I'm huge on breastfeeding it pains me how many people struggle to breastfeed. such a stressful thing for so many people. Endorphins play a huge role in natural childbirth. Again, in normal labor, the body produces increasingly strong contractions that gradually intensify over time. As the uterine muscles begin to tighten and relax during contractions, the muscles release endorphins, or those natural painkillers, which is similar to what happens when we exercise. In spontaneous labor or natural labor, endorphins increase proportionately as oxytocin increases. But in induced labors, the body's natural endorphins cannot keep up. They can't. So the intensity of the contractions is not able to be managed properly by the body without often intervention again, and necessitates that epidural. So while pitocin forces the body to contract on demand, natural oxytocin in the body is released in varying amounts, which I didn't always know. I didn't know this. During labor, it can go in waves or pulses depending on the mother and her tolerance. so, pitocin obviously is just going to do what it's going to do. But oxytocin, method of release in natural childbirth, is receptive to feedback from the mother's body and the baby as well, which essentially means that the baby or the mother can send signals, stress signals, to the mother's body to slow down or speed up contractions as needed so that they can reposition or rest. Again, the opposite occurs with pitocin. So it's just contractions become increasingly stronger, longer, closer, and more painful. um Often this makes it harder for the baby. a lot more fetal distress. He's coming out faster. The fetal heart rate can be abnormal. Malposition of the baby is more likely because he or she lacks the time or strength to adjust between the contractions. uh Pitocin is also linked to uterine rupture and hemorrhaging, post-delivery, and accumulation of blood in the soft tissues of the pelvis, again because it's just happening so fast. I'm going to read a quote from a lady named Sarah J. Buckley from her book, Gentle Birth, Gentle Mothering, A Doctor's Guide to Natural Childbirth and Gentle Early Parenting Choices. And this is where I got quite a bit of my information, as well as some information online. But she says, birth has been systematically medicalized. to the point where women are more likely to need assistance because of the high level of technology used to keep them safe in the first place. We've been doing childbirth for a long time. uh I know that in the past, one of the highest reasons for mortality in women was childbirth. However, I think we've gone a little overboard where doctors are so afraid of being sued that they'll intervene just so they can have it on record that they did this, this, this, this, this, that. to help the mother and they can't sue them for not doing enough. There's other natural induction methods. Evening Prismorose oil is an herbal remedy that can be inserted into the vagina. Castor oil, which I was kind of on a time crunch with my last baby because I had a midwife and you can't get past a certain date. a midwife legally or they have to turn you over to a doctor in a hospital. And so I was already four centimeters dilated. And beautiful thing about castor oil, which has been used for, I want to say centuries, is that if the baby is ready to come, it'll castor ingestion. If it's not, it will not come. It'll just make you sick and throw up and diarrhea for a while, which Oh man, it did. But with my son that I'm holding here in my arms right now, I took castor oil that day it can take up to 36 hours if you're going to have that baby castor oil. And I felt good about it and I did it and an hour and a half later, an hour and 15 actually, he was out. I almost didn't make it to the birthing center. I wanted I got there and they were like, oh, you're ready to push. uh 10 minutes later, he was out. So that was fun, but I'm a believer in castor oil. It's again, been used for so long and it works as a purge. There's not a lot of research on it. uh scientists out there who want to do studies on castor oil? Please do. I'd love to Read your studies. The other natural induction method is sex, which most of us have sex when we're pregnant. The sperm is full of hormones which help the ripening of the cervix. it is safe to have sex in intercourse during pregnancy. And these hormonal receptors can trigger labor. kind of like castor oil it's not going to activate labor until the baby is ready. Oxytocin is also released during nipple stimulation, which can get things going if labor is near. I talked about it in another podcast where an organism is the second biggest occasion for oxytocin release in the body, whereas giving birth is the number one. So. During labor, of the uterus and the fetus, I understand why they do it. They don't want to be surprised if something is wrong. But the EFM, which is that fetal heart monitoring system, not improve birth outcomes, statistically, but it has led to a massive increase in C-section rates when it started getting used. between 1970 and 2016, the C-section rate in the United States increased from 5 % to 32%. think it's even higher now. This may be in part, not fully, but in part because wearing those monitors restricts the birthing mother's movement, so she can't move around and kind of necessitates her lying down, which frankly is the worst position for giving birth. When I was in severe labor in the car on the way to the birthing center, I could not stay sitting down. It was too painful. I had to be on my hands and knees. And that's one of the better ways to give birth Cow and cat in yoga, kind of that position on your hands and knees. EFM, I guess they were supposed to help monitor for cerebral policy and things like that, but the rate of that hasn't changed since they started using the EFM during labor. So personally. I think again, they're overused. Ultrasounds. I have gotten ultrasounds for all my kids. I think they're fun and I wanted a heads up if my child was possibly going to have Down syndrome or something was wrong. But it's also introducing energy into the body that can heat body tissue and can possibly bother the baby. There hasn't been a whole lot of research on this, but statistically, ultrasounds do not improve outcomes for either the mother or the baby. Interesting, right? another interesting fact is that home births or a hospital birth. Like the rate of, death is virtually the same, which again surprised me. You would think that a hospital would be able to mitigate more of that. The only big difference is that those people who go to a hospital have more interventions. It's really The only difference that I could find in my research. So there is a device that some women are given that will monitor them if they're high risk at home. Home monitoring, costs about $800 a day, but they have not been shown to prevent prematurity randomized clinical trials. But it does increase visits to the emergency room. because I don't know, false alarm, And it's very costly. So again, it's not really making outcomes any better, Doppler, can use the frequency of waves kind of like ultrasounds and they can catch some things that ultrasounds don't. But technology has never been proven safe. This hasn't been proven dangerous either, but again, it's just kind of one of those things. How much intervention do you need? you want? I don't know. And it can raise unnecessary concerns if there's really nothing wrong, but they think they see something that might be wrong. don't know. cervical exams. It's when the care provider inserts two fingers in your vagina. it's pretty non-invasive. So surgical interventions at birth. Okay, so babies born with the help of a vacuum are often very unsettled and grumpy. They didn't like it. I mean, how would you like someone to put a big vacuum on your head and suck you out? but they're often a few days after birth, they're just not too happy. uh Rare bleeding inside the skull can occur. That is a serious condition. It's very very rare though. can cause infection, again, not super likely, seen as better than forceps, however, in a lot of cases. Forceps, they look like really big salad spoons. You use them when... The baby's ready to be born just like the vacuum. those who use forceps, less than 3 % will need a C-section, according to statistics on that. C-section, I'm all about avoiding lots of reasons. you have a C-section, you give up the whole birth canal experience. The baby is not getting all that good bacteria, yada, yada, yada. And I've talked about that before. The risk to using forcepts is that the baby can experience bruising bumps, a cone-shaped head, which my first baby that took me a long time to get out because he was nine pounds one definitely had a cone-shaped head to the side of his head. He looked funny for a while. Cuts or marks on the side of face, minor eye injury, a skull fracture, or bleeding on the brain. Mother can experience significant damage as well to her female outer parts. again, I think forcepts are Much better than a cesarean birth, which is what I'm going to talk about next The most common type being an incision made on the lower part of the stomach just above the bikini line. There's other Methods transverse incision But it's rare that that's needed And you hope you don't have to do that So the benefits are saving the baby and mom in an emergency, right? These these sometimes cesarean sections have saved lives, but it's the elective c-sections that drive me crazy. Why are we scheduling c-sections with doctors who just want to make sure they're not delivering babies on a holiday or the middle of the night or on their vacation? I talked to a friend couple years ago, she went to the hospital. Her doctor wasn't there yet. And I guess technically the doctor has to be there and catch the baby when it comes out in order to get paid. Well, the baby was on its way out and the nurses were literally pushing on the baby's head, trying to prevent her from coming out before the doctor came. And to me that is, that should be illegal. I preventing her from being born when she coming out already, it just made me so mad to hear this. But she did this and then the doctor came and caught the baby and got paid. seriously, like, I hate that. just, oh, let the baby come out when they want to come out. Most C-sections. Elective ones can be avoided. The risk of the mother dying after a cesarean section is four times higher than a normal vaginal birth. Also, 20 to 40 percent of women have post-cesarean complications after birth. For elective C-sections, it could mean unplanned premature baby, like, oops, I thought you were ready, but you're not. Also, every cesarean increases risk involved with future pregnancies. Some of these increased risks include placenta, implanting low in the uterus, like placenta previa, or into the uterine scar, which is placenta accreta, and risk of uterine scar separation. A C-section can also lead to difficulties becoming pregnant again, and an increased chance of future ectopic pregnancies due to scarring. For each subsequent cesarean birth, the surgery becomes more complicated as well because the surgeon has to kind of find his way more carefully through all the scarring and adhesions that formed from previous surgeries. And if the surgeon elects to do a single layer closure, which is easier, faster, and cheaper, rather than a double layer closure post-surgery, the incidence of uterine rupture which means the scar bursts open, increases quite a lot. So if you do get a cesarean section, make sure that your surgeon is willing to do double layer closure. Onto apesiotomies. Now this was done to me my first birth. I think it was completely unnecessary. I was a very uneducated new mom. And they said, I think we should snip you make those go faster and help us out. OK. Well, it's not recommended anymore like it used to be. It's done sometimes to make extra room for the baby's head. Some believe that it's preferable to tearing. and can allow a speedier delivery and make room for a vacuum or forceps that becomes necessary. research suggests that routine episiotomies just not necessary and tears actually heal better than episiotomies, which is something a lot of people and doctors and specialists didn't realize. Some obstetricians still use this as a convenience measure to finish a delivery more quickly. An episiotomy cuts through muscle, tissue, and skin, which often leads to urinary incontinence. Yay! Perineal trauma can actually cause more perineal tearing during childbirth than if you just left it alone. So, specifically why can be so problematic is actually the local anesthetics, the thing that makes you numb before they cut you, because it causes the perineal tissue to swell. Interesting, right? This decreases the perineum's flexibility, which increases the chance of tearing. hi baby. I'm carrying my baby in my lap right now as I record. So extra scarring from an empeziotomy can also affect the vagina's ability to stretch for future births. I don't know the difference because that was my first baby and that's what was done to me, but I wish it wasn't. live and learn, right? remember how painful it was. recovering from that. So, pain relief. There's been a lot of talk about that lately of, this was safe. no, it's not. With ibuprofen and acetaminophen. Acetaminophen, bleh, bleh. uh I'm not saying that right. Sorry. But some data has shown a link between the use of acetaminophen and undescended testicles in male babies. Yeah, sign me up for that. No, thank you. Ibuprofen, which has always been considered generally safe, um but maybe not so much anymore. During the first trimester, there's an increased risk of miscarriage, heart defects, and other abnormalities like cleft pellet. Hmm. During the last trimester, ibuprofen can cause premature closure of the vessels in the baby's heart, increasing the risk of high blood pressure. The drug can also act on the baby's kidneys, reducing their urine output and can reduce the amount of amniotic fluid surrounding the baby in utero. it can also delay labor and birth. So again, it's just like, don't take it if you can avoid it in any way. TENS machines, I would say completely harmless. I got one and tried it. I didn't find it to be beneficial in any way, form, so I sold it to someone on Facebook Marketplace. Opiates. I would never opt for this one. The risks of using them. can cross the placenta during labor and cause respiratory depression, which means the baby isn't getting enough oxygen, right? Opioids can also make the baby sleepy after birth, which can affect their normal instinctive behaviors and their ability to connect with mom, right? And during that first hour, it's so pivotal to have an alert baby and alert mom so that they're bonding, not trying to wake up from opioid overdose. For the mother, side effects might include feeling woozy, sick, or forgetful, and can make her too drowsy to push. nitrous oxide. laughing gas, it doesn't really provide pain relief, alters the way we perceive the pain. it the good thing about this one is it won't interfere with bonding after the baby is born. However, study found that women who were administered oxide during labor gave birth to babies who were five and a half times more likely to have an addiction than siblings who were not exposed to nitrous oxide during labor. That's kind of crazy. 5.5 times. m That's over 500%. So it depresses normal brain function, interferes with the body cell development and vitamin B12 levels. So There's some concern for doctors and midwives who are around people getting administered nitrous oxide over time that maybe this could have bad effects on them as well. All right, on to epidurals. We know that this is everybody's favorite thing because it took all the pain away, but pain is part of that process, that natural process that allows the natural chemicals, that allows the natural childbirth, that allows the body to respond the way that it was intended to have the baby, in the natural way that nature intended. And you start interfering with that process and the chemicals don't get released because you're not having the pain, you don't feel anything. Again, it just leads to more interventions a lot of the time. And I did have an epidural with my first and second son. I didn't know any better. take the pain away. With my second son, they had morphine in my epidural The first time it was a variety of epidural. I don't know. I was shocked because morphine makes me itch like no other and I don't ever, ever, ever want to be given morphine ever again. I itch for about 27 hours after getting morphine in my system. So no thank you to that for me. uh Decreased fetal heart rate can also result with an epidural, increased risk of interventions again, because labor is essentially being slowed down because you're not letting the body do what it needs to do because you're not feeling anything anymore. And in very rare cases, it can cause paralysis. I don't know anyone who's experienced that, but it can happen. But the biggest problem with an epidural again is that the mother's own natural chemicals for childbirth are not produced. It can affect the mother's strength and ability to push the baby out, which was a problem for me with my first son. I almost could not get him out because I couldn't feel to push. When mother feels like there's no pain, oxytocin is inhibited again and it makes it difficult for mother who has had an epidural to bond with her new baby. that alone... is my reason for not doing an epidural. I wanted that bonding experience. It's made a huge difference to my younger two boys that I had to work pretty hard to bond with my older ones. And I think that's one of the reasons. Another reason being that when I was raising them and pregnant with them, I struggled with depression at the time. So that played into that bonding as well. So after you give birth, A lot of doctors will try to hurry the placenta out or even kind of pull on it. I believe it's best to leave the placenta alone, let it come out on its own if at all possible. And I actually left the cord intact until the placenta came out. I didn't clamp it early. And what the benefit of doing this, which I actually didn't know, is goes back into the baby from cord. And it allows higher iron stores in the baby for up to six months. The baby will lose a significant amount of blood and iron if the cord is clamped immediately after birth. So it also allows for more oxygen to reach the baby if you do not clamp the cord right away. Delayed clamping can possibly result in a higher risk of jaundice. And all of my babies did struggle with jaundice, but it wasn't a big deal. We just took them outside a lot. That is basically most of what I have to say about natural childbirth from my research. The last one being vitamin K injections. And the thing about this one that blows my mind is that every baby for as long as history has made babies has been born with less vitamin K than doctors seem to think they need. these vitamin K injections have polysorbate surfactants, has benzyl alcohol, preservatives, and yes it has vitamin K in it. It's synthetic though, it's not natural its purpose is to assist a baby's blood clotting capabilities to avoid skin, brain, abdomen, or gastrointestinal bleeding, but they're extremely rare. We're talking like 0.25 to 1.7 % in any given year and even recent studies have shown that it reported 0 to 0.44%. It's not a lot. And so risks of the vitamin K injection, while they aren't a lot other than just having toxins that you don't necessarily want is that all babies are born with thin blood. All of them. Maybe there's a natural reason for this. I don't know, just possibly that God made us this way for a reason and we just don't know what that reason is. So again, I feel less messing with nature, the better. Is it important to intervention sometimes to have a safe birth and a living baby and a living mother? Yes. But better not to if not needed. So I'm a huge advocate of midwives. just because of their mentality that they want to do fewer interventions and using a doctor when necessary. Also, if you're in a hospital, it's a lot easier to say yes to that epidural because gosh dang it, it hurts. It hurts. And I found out it doesn't seem to matter how big the baby is. It hurts about the same. It's just a matter of how long does it take the baby to get out? Smaller ones come out faster, but it just hurts. And so if you're in a birthing center or at home, you don't have access to the epidural. It's not an option. So I liked that boundary for myself. I thought I had a really high pain tolerance until I had a child and then I was like, Oh, this is a whole nother level. Wow. But you know, props to women for having children at all. It is a really difficult world to raise a family in right now and make it work and provide. and be able to do all the things you need to do to raise your babies and feed them and clothe them and love them and be there for them. and I feel like more we can do natural in so many aspects of our lives, the better. And why not start with the way that we give birth? Because I do believe that it has massive impacts on our mental health. postpartum. can make a big difference on how we interact with our baby, impact the way we interact with them for the rest of their upbringing and possibly the rest of their lives. That's foundational. I am going to leave some links on my website for those who are interested in vaccination information, because I think it's important, So you can make your own decision in that regard. And I will leave you with that assignment as well as considerations, send this to anyone you know who's considering natural childbirth or who isn't considering natural childbirth, who you think maybe could consider natural childbirth. so they know the ins and outs and the pros and cons. I think that education and understanding where and why all these things are done is important in making educated decisions you don't to regret. I made decisions with my older kids because I didn't know the pros and cons. And if I had, I probably would have made different decisions. And there's people would listen to this and still make the same decision give birth in the hospital, and that's fine. But I think having the information out there and everyone, all mothers and new mothers, potential mothers, having this kind of information You're taking accountability for the choices that you're making, not just, I'm just doing it because my doctor said. So doing it because you feel that it's the best thing. And with that, I hope you'll join us next week on the Overcome Depression podcast. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you next time.